Thyme 4 Tea with Mikita

Will Kesselman: Anger, Narcissism And How To Cope

September 27, 2022 Season 2 Episode 54
Thyme 4 Tea with Mikita
Will Kesselman: Anger, Narcissism And How To Cope
Show Notes Transcript

Will Kesselman, a divorce consultant and, trauma coach, shares his secrets for handling anger and narcissism in this episode of the Hot Tea podcast. In this episode yo,u will learn:
1. How to deal with anger in a healthy way
2. The impact of trauma on survivors
3. The role of narcissism in controlling and manipulative behavior

"It's very easy for someone like myself, my colleagues, co workers, for us to get what's called vicarious PTSD, which is not that we lived the trauma when it happened, but we live the trauma by hearing about it after the fact, especially if we're in the

This is Will Kesselman's story...

I'm a domestic balance divorce consultant and trauma coach, and I help people who have been affected by narcissism. I've been working in this field for 15 years, and I've seen a lot of anger and frustration from people who feel like the system isn't working in their favor. I've learned that it's important to respond instead of reacting to these situations because if you react, you're giving away your power. I teach my clients to cope with their anger by focusing on their words, emotions, and time. By taking a breath and changing their perspective, they can lower the mountain of overwhelming feelings into a hill.

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Hello, my friends, and welcome back. It is time for some tea, and I'm your host, Mikita. I want to thank you for just sharing your time, your space, and your energy with me today. Now, I know you've all heard this saying, he who angers you conquers you. I'm going to say that one more time, he who angers you conquers you.

And that statement is so powerful because we've all experienced the power of anger, which is why we are spilling some really hot tea today with Will Kesselman, domestic balance divorce consultant and trauma coach. And he's here to spill some amazing tea to talk about real anger, but also talk about narcissism. So William, thank you for coming on and shedding some light on that subject and spilling some hot tea. Sure. I'm glad to be here.

Thank you for the privilege of being here, and how may I be of value and service to your audience? Well, let's just talk a little bit about you have a lot of experience when it comes to dealing with narcissism, as well as a lot of other things, but when it comes to anger, can you just give us a little bit of background on what you do? Sure. So professionally, for the last 15 years, I've been investigating special victims cases for those who don't watch the TV show or don't know what that is, and that's absolutely cool what a special victims case is, sex abuse, human sex trafficking, domestic violence, child abuse. Basically, it's the heavy, heavy stuff that usually takes more time.

And I work for a specialized, elite division of the government. It's considered New York City. But it's also New York State. It's a long story to explain. But long story short.

I do it in the five boroughs of New York City itself. But we also sometimes will work in New York State. And sometimes we will not just make phone calls. But with certain protocols and procedures. We will go outside the state and sometimes even internationally.

To go try and help a child or help an adult when it comes to. Again. Sex abuse. Human trafficking. Child abuse.

Domestically violence. That kind of stuff. Wow, so that's a lot. What kind of led you to Pivot in that direction? Was that always something you love to do, like help other people or yes.

So helping others? Yes, but I don't think anyone wakes up one morning and says essentially the child, and go, yeah, I want to be a special Victims investigator. Like, imagine a four year old child or a ten year old child saying that, and then the parents like, what is Special Victims mean? You have that weird conversation with a kid going on kind of thing. But all kidding aside, I try to add some humor because it can be a very heavy topic and that kind of stuff.

But bottom line is I was actually in a program at school. I was in university and grad school joint program. And a couple of my colleagues in grad school, or fellow classmates, I should say, in grad school, they were working for the agency that I work for now. And the plan you're going to laugh, but the plan was to only do what I do for three years, not more, and then go into whether it's an IOC, industrial, organizational psychology or being a clinical psychologist or some version of psychology, 15 years later, jokes on me. I'm still with the agency and I do enjoy helping people, and I've still been still there, but it's come to a time where I know that time is not on my side.

I'm not old, but I'm not as young as 25, 30 anymore, and there will be a time when I have to transition. So I wanted to transition earlier than later. So it's on my terms and I'm able to help as many people as possible, as well as early and quickly as possible. Really? Yeah, definitely.

And I can understand that. That's a very challenging career, too, as well, and you've been doing it for a very long time, so I know there's some points in there. When you've experienced the anger and the frustration of the system not necessarily working in the victim's favor, what has that experience been like? Yeah, so I will use the word interesting. So without getting clinical, it's very easy for someone like myself, my colleagues, co workers, for us to get what's called vicarious PTSD, which is not that we lived the trauma when it happened, but we live the trauma by hearing about it after the fact, especially if we're in the Er.

And the survivor, I use the word survivor, so the survivor is talking about it as if it just happened, because it basically did just happen. And for them, it's still raw, it's still fresh, it's still essentially present. It's not exactly present, but it's present enough for them. And so you really do take in not just the information, but the feelings. And there's a response that you have.

And a lot of times, especially if you're a healthy adult, you're going to be angry, you're going to be annoyed, you're going to be frustrated with, how could someone do something like that? How could someone say something? How can someone do and say or whatever the scenario is, these things should not happen, especially in the 21st century, especially in the United States, especially in New York state and New Jersey and the tricep area in terms of all the stuff that we have available and all the resources and counseling and social workers and case workers and all that good stuff. And it's natural to have a response or a reaction, really, because if you're reacting, a reaction is raw, where a response is measured. In other words, you've collected yourself enough, where you're not just like a knee jerk reaction.

The doctor hits that without thinking, whatever the hell. It's called hit your knees, your knee goes back and forth. That's a reaction. But a response is you've thought about a little bit and it's like measured. It's a better word for it.

The word is not coming to me. Basically, you've taken a bit of time to make sure that you're in control of what you're now giving out after having experienced whatever your experience. So it's more of the you got used to responding versus reacting in those situations. Because our anger yeah, I think it all takes time, because I know that for the last year, for me, learning how to respond versus react has been challenging at times because I always have to remember that when I am reacting, I'm giving someone else power. And now the situation has consumed me and I don't want anything or any situation to have that much control.

So at the same time, it's also about taking back that power, I feel. Yeah, absolutely. We discussed this exact point before. We're now here. And for me, it's easy for a person to say, hey, they said whatever they did whatever, or the system did whatever the system said whatever or whatever's going on, whether it's a business or a company or an entity or a thing or even, I don't know, an advertisement commercial on the TV or whatever the case is to trigger something, trigger response.

But it's not your political thing or it's not your religious thing or not your whatever thing. Right. And by having that reaction where you're not in complete control, in my opinion, like you basically said, you're lowering yourself. First of all, in terms of status, you're no longer equal to whatever the other person or group or entity or whatever that person or whatever is. And more importantly, you're giving away of yourself what the other person or the other group or whatever wouldn't even take from you.

They don't want your anger, they don't want your reaction, they don't want any of that stuff. Yet you're giving it freely, openly, willingly, essentially. And they now have more than what they've ever wanted in the first place. And then to reverse that in terms of thoughts and emotions and behaviors or habits behaviors, habits is almost the same thing. And to reverse it is actually ten times harder.

Well, it's harder, I would say ten times, but it's harder. And in terms of the science and all those pieces, it's hours of meditation, it's hours of rewiring, especially if it becomes an actual habit where those pathways are there. And so you really are giving of your power away, because now you then have to work harder to change whatever it is you want to change in the way you want to change it. In other words, you don't want to get angry so quickly. You don't want to get angry because I don't know, the sense of mint and mint bothers you.

I'm making this up. And it takes a lot harder, a lot more work to then change your mindset, change your thoughts, your emotions, your behaviors and habits to not react, but to respond when it comes to, again, mint or mint ice cream or whatever the heck. We'll go with this example. So it's a big deal. Getting all your power is a big deal.

It's a very big deal. It is. I like the fact that you mentioned changing the mindset to change in thought, changing mindset, changing patterns and routines around how you deal with certain issues or things that anger you or frustrate you that causes you to step out of your normal behavior. But is there any, like, one key thing when you're coaching people that those survivors or people that need to they're angry? Sometimes our hurt turns to anger and it's easier sometimes to deal with the anger than deal with the pain of what just happened.

Is there any particular advice that you give to the people you work with to kind of help them to cope and measure and deal with that? Yeah, I do. But I also want to add something, if I if I may, that's okay, which is it's not just how we cope in terms of a thought, emotions, whatever, feelings, whatever it is. But it could also be I start spending more money, I started buying more things, I start eating more. I could even become a workaholic.

I could become an alcoholic. I could become hooked on drugs or whatever. There's usually some sort of ism or whatever, some sort of thing that you now do a bit more of as a reaction. Not a response, but a reaction because you're trying to cope. Especially, I would say probably a little bit more men than women in general.

I mean, very general now because guys don't always have the right tools to respond. They sometimes react more, but it's not that much different. And it's not only like I was saying, it's not only with words or emotion. It really does become you can see it very easily when we're talking about behaviors and patterns and that kind of stuff. Maybe you sleep more or you wake up later and you're rushing to work instead of being an early bird or the early worm or whatever you want to call it, to work.

Now, when it comes to just the emotion, the feeling and coping on that level, one of the key things that I do so I have a method that I use when it comes to dealing with someone who's manipulative and controlling that kind of stuff, but it applies to everything. And I've actually thought it through and the acronym is Wet. We t okay, because no one wants to get wet. No one wants to have that feeling of being wet for 6 hours, 10 hours, 20 hours, whatever. Your skin gets raw, numb, whatever the case is, it bothers you and no one wants to be bothered or annoyed.

So that's why I use the term wet, because no one wants to get annoyed. And so wet stands for words, emotions, and time. Okay? And so when ultimately, what we're trying to do is lower the mountain, people, when they have a trauma or they have an issue or they have a reaction, they're like, oh crap, this is a lot, oh crap, this is too much. Oh crap, whatever.

I'm feeling overwhelmed. And that mountain is much higher than it really is supposed to be. It really actually is. And when you start to look at each small piece, you're like, wait a second, I can handle that. I can handle that.

Then this before, I've done that before, I've done whatever before, you can handle these things. And so the mountain really ends up being more like a hill. Usually for most people, there are times when it's higher, there are times when there's issues, and there's ways to work through that as well. But for most people, just focusing on the mountain and then saying, okay, well, I just do this one step now, this next step, this next step, or deal with this issue first and that issue second. You're making that mountain into a hill.

And just by doing that, having less of an overwhelming feeling is like ten times the battle just then and there. Now, in terms of what, again, just holding in for that second words, because thoughts lead to words, but thoughts lead to emotions or feelings, and also they lead to behaviors and actions and so on and so forth. So if you're able to focus on your words and your thoughts and not react, but respond to whatever is going on, whether it's a person or just something, a bad thing happened, hurricane came through, God forbid, or whatever the case is, or whatever you believe, it okay. But there's that in terms of how you again, your feelings and your reaction to that, there's also in terms of words, so there's the emotions, the feelings, the words, how you react or respond. And then time, do you react right away?

Or are you able to hold back and say, you know what, I'll take a deep breath. And breathing, also being aware of your senses, what you see, what you hear, breathing, all those pieces. By changing how you react or respond, your nervous system then changes. So by taking a breath and I do a lot of breath work, among other tools and techniques. But again, it's lowering that mountain, in this case.

Now, with breath work, before, I mentioned words, emotions, time, whatever part of time is taking in a split second, slower if you're a fast walker, walk a little bit slower if you're a fast talker, which I can be sometimes, talk a little bit slower. Change that rhythm, change that pace, and your nervous system changes. Now, you do it enough over time, and your nervous system has a different baseline and that is huge. So if you're reacting, if there's a trauma and there's a coping issue by changing your nervous system and how it's reacting, because it's usually not something that you want to do the same that's happening. So by changing it from a reaction to a response, that's huge.

And breathing is one of the many things that I do work on or discuss, whatever. And again, that's part of the overall idea of lowering that mountain into a hill. I'm a big advocate when it comes to breathing techniques and breathing through emotions and things that are happening really transformed my life, really. I love the acronym for Wet and I love the fact that you mentioned about dealing with people that are controlling because that kind of moves into that narcissist component that we were talking about mentioned earlier. So how does all of that play and relate into everything?

Okay? So narcissists are really big on being controlling, being manipulative, being dominant, those kinds of pieces. Some people, and I will use this, and it's not 100%, but it's close enough that most narcissists, or again, people are manipulative, dominant, et cetera. They're usually adult children, man, child, woman, child, whatever word you want to use where a child doesn't get their way, they throw a tantrum, okay? Or a child who isn't used to a word.

Better yet, a child whose rhythm changes, they go to bed later, they go to bed earlier, the meal time changes, whatever changes, they change time zones, whatever the case is, you change those pieces, they're now reacting or throwing a tantrum or behaving in a way that isn't like an adult, that isn't measured, that isn't calmer, that isn't more of a coping aspect to it, whatever. It's just, well, this is how I feel bad, whatever it is, okay? It just gets blurted out right in whatever which way. And so again, going back to the same point of lowering that mountain from a mountain to a hill, having a way to look at it where it's calmer you're coping better. Words, emotions, time.

So with words, it really is important to say, I hear what you're saying, or whatever it is. There are some people that say, use a certain script. I actually am not a big believer in that. In fact, I'm just coming out with a mini ebook that I will give you the information for at the end of this session, or podcast or recording and people can understand my point of view through my ebook. And it's free.

It's a value of x amount of dollars, but again, it's no cost for your listeners. And so, bottom line is, if a person takes the time to think of the words that they're using, the words and thoughts are very closely linked. So if you're able to take the time to say, oh, I'll use this word instead of that word. So I'm a narcissist, I hear what you're saying. Or hey, that makes sense.

Or hey, I never thought about that point. Let me think about it tomorrow. I'll get back to you. The key aspect for narcissist with words is I hear your point. Not I hear you.

Because that's usually not like it's more of a canned it's more of a psycho babble kind of deal. It's more like, I hear your point, I hear what you're saying, whatever the case is. But most importantly, I didn't think of it that way. Let me think about it and get back to you. That's the most important thing.

I didn't think about it that way. Let me think about it. I'll get back to you. Don't say thank you or please or those kinds of things that change the status. And you always want to establish yourself going forward.

Now, if you've done things in the past, it is what it is. You move forward and you change how you're going to respond, not react to a narcissist or again, someone who's controlling, manipulative, etc, dominant, whatever. And your feelings, again, breathworth, take a split second, okay, I'm feeling this, but how do I want to convey, what do I want to do? Or say, I believe that you do have to respond to a narcissist, because if you look at the studies with children and again, narcissist children, that whole comparison, if you ignore a child, not only is there psychological damage for child, but the children immediately in the studies that I've seen, the children will start to throw attention. They'll scream, they'll yell, whatever.

Whether it's attention, whether it's other pieces, a different story. But they will have a reaction, and it's behavioral in the way it's done. Just like a dominant person, initiative person will start to throw a quote, unquote tantrum in whichever way it is. So it's important to respond, but you don't have to say very much. You can just say, Never thought of that before.

Okay, thinking about it. I'll get back to you. You don't have to say when. You don't have to say where or why or who or whatever. Just have to say, I got your message, let me think about it, I'll get back to you.

And there's that. But the time aspect is very key. Sometimes it's very important to not respond right away. Not just because the emotions and feelings, not because of the words, not just because maybe your ultimate end goal or result is even dictate because you're mad at them, which is human, no worries, but don't do it. But don't do it.

But most importantly, you want to establish control. You want to be in charge. And if it means you're taking the time from going to reacting to responding and responding 12 hours later or 12 hours later I'm sorry, or the next morning, then you're not in control. Don't wait too long. Don't wait more than 24 hours.

They'll go bananas, and they'll make things worse and whatever again, like I said before, you don't have to reply. You don't have to message about each point they've made. If you have a bunch of points, say, okay, you mentioned a bunch of points. Let me think about it. I haven't thought about it like this before.

Let me get back to you. I'll leave it like that. And if it takes you a week to get back to them, it's by text. Or they can say no. Like text is text.

You're not meant to reply right away anyway. You have a grace period now. It doesn't mean right back three months later. That's a big no no. Just make sure we're clear.

But within three to seven days, that's more or less normal. If you're super busy and you want to be kind, but don't be too kind to a bully or Manipulative or whatever kind of person, you can say, hey, I know it's been two or three days, still thinking about it. We'll get back to you, something like that. This way they know that nurses need to feed bullies, Manipulative people, those kinds of people they need people to feed off of. So I used to think that narcissists, bullies, Manipulative people, etc.

They have low self esteem. In fact, the research shows that self esteem is a whole different category. It doesn't matter if they have low self esteem or high self esteem. They can have one or the other. That's not a connection.

But many people think that it is and it's not. But most importantly, when it comes to someone who's manipulating that kind of thing, it's like someone who's basically kind of drowning in that sense, where they just need to be above the other person constantly. So if they're next to someone and they can't really assume that well, and they need a breath, they push down on somebody else and you want to avoid that. So again, wet words, emotions or feelings and then the time. Those three key pieces are very important when it comes to how you want to cope with a narcissist or with a Manipulative person, dominant person, controlling person, and respond as opposed to react.

So you are in the driver's seat. Yeah, I feel like when you're dealing with those type of people, like you said, if you take the time to not respond right away and allow yourself the freedom to take back the count of the power versus them, you responded in an angry way. And then, because they're usually a narcissist or those Manipulative people are really good about honing in on your weakness and then flipping it around to make you feel guilty for your anger. And now they're back in the control power seat, and now they're back to control on your emotions, making you feel bad for an emotion that you probably just had every right to feel. And now like, the power dynamic is changing.

So I love the idea of using being able to use that acronym Wet in every situation when dealing with lots of different people. Yeah. And it's important to let them think that they're still feeding it even though they really aren't. Let them think that they're in charge. And by saying, hey, got your message, thinking about it, haven't thought about it this way before, that lets them think that they're still in charge.

They're still the ones who are manipulating you even though they're not anymore because you have these kinds of tools. There's other authors and other tools out there too that can be helpful. We can debate how helpful, but that's not for now. But ultimately they all sort of but bottom line is all the research sort of comes the same points, which is what I'm mentioning now. Okay?

And so most of these ideas, most of the tools and acronyms that are all out there, different books and stuff, it's more or less the same. There's just different tweaks here in styles here or there that as a preference or whatever. It's nothing bad or good or indifferent. But it really is important to let the other person who's a manipulative person, a controlling person, a dominant person, keep letting them think that they're in control because otherwise they're going to react and respond. Remember, they've had years, if not decades of training and they apply the same training, the same words, the same patterns to everybody.

And so it's super important to let them think they're in control because ultimately, once you go to this kind of stuff, you can then push the envelope when you need to, you know what's coming. You then respond appropriately on top of that and you're able to really put them in a corner if you have to. But if you're not good at this, you don't have all the tools, you don't have all the experience. Start with Wet, start there and make sure that they think that they are in control even though that they're not anymore. I love that.

Well, thank you so much for just coming on and sharing all that delicious tea and giving people the audience an opportunity to find different ways not only to cook with anger, but to deal with in an effective way. Narcissists are controlling people, manipulative people. I will ask you a question I ask every guest that comes on and I know you've seen a lot and done a lot, but when it comes to living life unapologetically, how would you define that? That's a great question. There's a good friend of mine who's actually known as the no Excuses Coach.

His name is Christopher Roch and I was actually recently on his podcast. But we've been friends for six months already or even more or whatever. And ultimately if I you, whoever lives in fear, you're giving your power to somebody else. The same idea before, like we talked about, when it comes to reacting, when it comes to anger, when it comes to even other feelings, right? I don't mean like be bad to somebody else or harm somebody else or say harmful words somebody else.

I'm saying as long as everything stays equal and everyone's equal in that sense, then do what you want to do. I'm not saying speed, of course, to make sure we're very clear, but do what you want to do in the sense of take that trip, obviously, spend appropriately, be financially responsible, but build up. Take that trip, build up, make that phone call, go on that hike, go do what it is. Make the time. If it means that you have to have more structure, have more structure, whatever it is.

Everyone has their deficiencies, their issues or whatever. Okay? So you take some time, you figure out whatever it is that's holding you back, okay? I'm not good at planning. I'm not good at structure, I'm not good at time management, I'm not good at whatever it is, work on that a little bit or whatever it is, and bam, you then get to whatever goal it is.

It's so important to celebrate with goals. Positive emotions change us internally in terms of how all of the stuff, fires and wires and all that kind of stuff. It helps in terms of the chemicals inside of our bodies. It helps in terms of feeling good and all those things impact our thoughts, and the thoughts then could ricochet back into, again, the feelings and the chemicals. So it's so important to feel good and do things that feel good.

So if you're with a partner and you guys like to make love, make some more love, okay, I'm not saying every hour, but whatever's appropriate, but again, feeling good in the appropriate way, it's important. And I do want to sort of bring the other last piece to the listeners, if I may, for not too long, like two, three minutes, whatever it is. Because again, I didn't mention this before and you asked the question, I sort of changed it and whatever. I believe that people do want to understand a bit more in terms of the person they're listening to. Who am I?

What am I? What have I done? Whatever, that kind of stuff. So super quick, in terms of my bio, quote, unquote, whatever, some accomplishments and that kind of thing, I've helped over a thousand parents and children, mostly parents, when it comes to overcoming trauma, especially when it comes to divorce and coparent and that kind of stuff. My job for the government is to go into what I call the fire, which is basically when stuff is going on, whether it's weapons being used or words being used or things going on or child elimination or who knows what, my job is to knock on that door and go inside, fight that fire, so to speak.

Not a real fire, fight the fire, whatever. Put the fire out, handle things and make sure afterwards it's a proper. Plan going forward to handle these things. So I've stared down narcissist in the home or the emergency room or publicly or supermarket or whatever the case is. And so I have that expertise where I've essentially interacted with, spoken to, talk to, whatever, hundreds of them and you learn their patterns, you learn their behaviors, you learn all that kind of stuff.

But more importantly, in terms of my personal experiences, again, as to why I know what I know this is I think is also important. As a child I was severely bullied for a long time. There was trauma from a dominant parent. I don't mention who, I don't think it's appropriate if they birth me, even though I don't think they should have treated the way they treated me. Whole different topic.

But I respect they still gave me birth and life and so on and so forth. So child abuse, abominated parents I saw in high school that I could make a difference. The same children who bullied me very intensely ended up voting for me. And there was a whole triumph story with that which is very cool and that propelled me. And again, those positive emotions are so important.

Those good feelings are so important. They really can push and can show a person hey, I can make it if I didn't work through a lot of my loss. Can you hear me? I can hear you. Cool.

I wasn't sure because I heard the lag and I go super briefly. Basically, like I mentioned before, positive emotions are so important. So I learnt when I did something I thought I had no chance of succeeding at and I still took one step forward and one step forward and one step forward and one step forward. The same children who severely believed me ended up voting for me. And I realized I can make a difference.

And I took those positive feelings and I realized oh now let's do this and let's do that. And I started to do stuff and make an impact and make a difference. But when it comes to children, there's a lot of stuff comes back to childhood when it comes to children who had a dominant parent, narcissistic, manipulative, whatever, usually you're going to end up marrying or being with someone for a long time, long term, longer term into a narcissistic person that has more behaviors or narcissistic control, et cetera. And I learned from that too. And that's why now I do what I do when it comes to the firm that I run.

It's a hybrid firm of coaching and consultant where I help women and men parents go through the process of divorce but give them real tools, especially the hidden tools known to government investigators, agents, police and the court system professionals. So that's what I do, I do now and again, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I didn't have those positive behaviors, those positive feelings, all those good outcomes when I was a kid and as an adult, I wouldn't be where I am now if I didn't take those victories and use them as ignition, whatever you want to call it. So important. That is that's amazing. Now tell people where they can connect with you, where they can find you, what's your social handles.

I appreciate that. So you can find me on Facebook, you can look me up as William Castleman. I go by Will, but I changed my name so many times on Facebook that's William there just true Story Facts or facts. You can go to control and power strategy. It's one word, control and, which is the name of the company you can go to.

Men take control of your divorce before she does. As the Facebook group or for women take control of your divorce before he does. Those are the two handles on the Facebook groups. On Facebook, you can email me if you want control and If you want to get the free ebook.

That's my suggestion. Well, it's not free, it's complimentary. It's no cost to your listeners and it's a pretty decent value. But long story short is, email me if you wish. There'll be links all over social media.

The other handles are C underscore punscore strategy, which is short for control and power strategy. So c underscore P, underscore strategy, Twitter, IG, et cetera. And I'll be coming out with a lot of material when it comes to TikTok and YouTube in the next couple of weeks. Thank you again for having me. I do appreciate it.

Thank you so much. And guys, don't worry, I will have all of that information in the show notes thinking so much for being an amazing guest. Everyone stay tuned, we'll do some more key takeaways.